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KCM

Pistol or Revolver for Concealed Carry?

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Dan Seven    1,300

wow..will You look at that...something that you can pull out of your pocket and somehow even the score with the universe..

good luck with that..a guy has to be a tool to understand the value of one..

Lovin it..

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Rick    34

As my late friend Chum (an old cowboy and rancher) told me while gesturing with his dad's 32-20 Bisley, "Samuel Colt patented this device and said it would make the little man as big as the big man, and I'm five foot #&$%-all and I can tell you by God it works!

I used to go shoot my little Mauser in their gravel pit and Chum said,"Why, that's a real robber's gun, you could have that in your pants and nobody would know!  Personal preference is everything - if you want to pack a Hi-Power you'll get a truss made for it. 

Edited by Rick
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zackmars    501
10 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

wow..will You look at that...something that you can pull out of your pocket and somehow even the score with the universe..

good luck with that..a guy has to be a tool to understand the value of one..

Lovin it..

2 weeks ago, a 70 year old woman with limited arm strength came in, and bought a sig 938 for concealed carry. Some guy broke both of her arms trying to take her purse

 

Ive had survivors, some of them in wheelchairs, of violent crimes, come in and buy guns for self defense. Next time i see them, I'll be sure to let them know they are "tools".

 

 

Don't even start. We get it, you don't like guns. So stay out of the one area specifically dedicated to them.

Edited by zackmars
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Thomas    903
16 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

wow..will You look at that...something that you can pull out of your pocket and somehow even the score with the universe..

good luck with that..a guy has to be a tool to understand the value of one..

Lovin it..

As I wrote about in the past Dan, I understand your perspective but to dismiss an individual's right to self-defence and attribute terminology like "tools" to these individuals is disingenuous. 

No one thinks a firearm will fix every problem, that said people purchase them for a variety of reason and its not our place to create an us vs them construct with regards to the right to way deal with the chaotic aspects of our life.

You have a unique perspective on life that skews your view of items like firearms, the reality is that everyone has biases, including me. We have to respect that someone who has been in a situation where they "lost power" like a robbery may want to seek redress that by having a tool that equalizes the odds. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact, its textbook human nature (for better or worse).

What you have to understand, by dismissing peoples biases and feelings with glib generalizations is that it galvanises human opinion. You have a right to your opinion, but at the end of the day you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. 

At the end of the day, we go through life dealing with our experiences the best way we can. This doesn't make people tools or stupid but rather humans who decided to take a proactive stance against a general threat. 

I am myself in that same category, as is elise and many of the people here. I understand your reticence towards killing but its limited to an intellectual understanding, pragmatically- I would cut any threat down with little to no concern. I know you will find this jarring but objectively, I do not feel guilt over the concept of killing an aggressor. In my mind its glorified suicide- if you willingly attack someone then you have effectively signed away your personal safety through your actions.

This, naturally is my own personal perspective and whilst I respect your own views on the matter, I would like you to do the same for mine and @zackmars without ascribing a certain mental state or moral authority on us.

We all have a red line for when the gloves come off, the difference is that mine & @zackmars is much closer than yours. This doesn't make us wrong, or right. We just live with a different thresh hold with regards to violence and its consequences (which we accept).

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Dan Seven    1,300
On 7/22/2017 at 5:38 AM, Thomas said:

I am myself in that same category, as is elise and many of the people here. I understand your reticence towards killing but its limited to an intellectual understanding, pragmatically- I would cut any threat down with little to no concern.

As I have mentioned before..I have spent a lot of a professional career doing trauma and grief counselling. To diminish these efforts by conflating this body of work to an intellectual understanding dishonors those that i have attempted to provide a reason to live that i have lost to suicide or derangement. It is not easy to do this work not knowing if the heart you are working with is too torn apart from violence to go on.

After all i have said here, i am still getting that people are justifying preventing pain by dishing out, even lethally, as their first instinct and response.

Both sides of the smoking barrel get hurt, and very badly. I have lost enough clients to know it is not always the one who is attached to the trigger that is the "Survivor". Surviving the decision to kill someone else is not black and white.

It is clear that one cannot Love themselves and hate the decisions they make for themselves, because despite the outside threat, it is a decision we need to own. Better darn well be right in the eyes of your Maker..You will know it soon enough if it is not, as a piece of your Heart dies inside your chest. that is the moment when  it ceases to be come a "practical" choice.

I like guns. However, I do not have murder in my heart, and that is a burden i will always find freedom in, and express that freedom in what i do for a living to keep others breathing.

Fault me for it If You must.  I will be the one speaking to the fruitlessness of violence, and cleaning up the mess that happens to people, who walk or fall into this without conscience of consequence.

 

 

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zackmars    501
3 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

As I have mentioned before..I have spent a lot of a professional career doing trauma and grief counselling. To diminish my efforts by conflating this body of work to an intellectual understanding dishonors those that i have attempted to provide a reason to live that i have lost. It is not easy to do this work not knowing if the heart you are working with is too torn apart from violence to go on.

After all i have said here, i am still getting that people are justifying preventing pain by dishing out, even lethally, as their first instinct and response.

Both sides of the smoking barrel get hurt, and very badly. I have lost enough clients to know it is not always the one who is attached to the trigger that is the "Survivor". Surviving the decision to kill someone else is not black and white.

It is clear that one cannot Love themselves and hate their decisions they make for themselves, because despite the outside threat, it is a decision we need to own. Better damn well be right in the eyes of your Maker..You will know it soon enough if it is not, as a piece of your Heart dies inside your chest. that is the moment when  it ceases to be come a "practical" choice.

Zackmars..I like guns. However, I do not have murder in my heart, and that is a burden i will always find freedom in, and express that freedom in what i do for a living to keep others breathing.

Fault me for it If You must.  I will be the one speaking to the fruitlessness of violence, and cleaning up the mess that happens to people, who walk or fall into this without conscience of consequence.

If you like guns, why do you feel the need to insult people who use them to protect themselves with them at every turn?

 

Calling us "tools", or whatever other humdingers you have up your sleeve, doesn't make you sound smart, it makes you sound like an angry person who's not interested in listening to opposing viewpoints, and instead would rather just shitpost.

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Dan Seven    1,300

Not about insulting people.

It is about a bullshit argument that You are protecting yourself instead of destroying yourself with Guns.

It has become a pathology in your part of the world and it is time to wake up to how sick people have become about guns.

You don't agree.

But if You were in my business it is plain that the remedy has become the disease.

Perhaps if sought out to support victims of violence to see what they are going through, You would understand my point of view.

But then, maybe if i was like You and made my living selling terrified victims of violence a gun as an answer to their problems...i might see yours.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. 

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zackmars    501
1 hour ago, Dan Seven said:

Not about insulting people.

It is about a bullshit argument that You are protecting yourself instead of destroying yourself with Guns.

It has become a pathology in your part of the world and it is time to wake up to how sick people have become about guns.

You don't agree.

But if You were in my business it is plain that the remedy has become the disease.

Perhaps if sought out to support victims of violence to see what they are going through, You would understand my point of view.

But then, maybe if i was like You and made my living selling terrified victims of violence a gun as an answer to their problems...i might see yours.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. 

If it's not about insulting people, why did you use an insult? Calling someone a tool, is an insult. Period, full stop.

 

Yes, i am protecting my self with guns.

 

I also protect myself with clothes, saftey glasses, masks, fire extinguishers, etc

 

I'd be much more willing to debate, but you seem to have little to no intrest in that, instead preferring to insult members and other mods, and troll the forum, and then run away when you elicit a reaction.

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Thomas    903
9 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

You win Zackmars.

Thats the thing Dan, its not about winning or losing. By insisting on an abrasive approach to promoting your point of view, you are simply alienating people who may have a lot to learn from you.

As I stated in my initial response, I totally understand where you are coming from, you are born out of your experiences and consequently this skews your world view as do my own experiences skew mine. 

Dismissing people's experiences even if you disagree with them is disingenuous to a common conversation amongst peers. You say;

Quote

It is about a bullshit argument that You are protecting yourself instead of destroying yourself with Guns.

and it would be trivial for me to dismiss that argument as bullshit too- I come from a military family, back in the days, the wives would travel with soldiers to countries of deployment (for officers). One day, one my great-grandmother was alone with the kids, local men went to invade her home. She went outside with a hunting rifle and dealt with the threat.

My first memory of her was being in her drawing room at my grandmothers house, I remember her stoic gaze and the strength of her character. In no way was she "destroyed". She protected her family above all else and this is a sentiment that is common amongst many people who have defended themselves with firearms. I have countless examples in my family of "positive" firearm ownership and in my own case the pragmatic approach of not seeking to hurt anyone but having a line in the sand to deal with assailants. I believe @zackmars feels the same way more or less.

You are entirely within your rights to disagree but before throwing out a knee-jerk response, please consider where you are, and who you are talking to. This is a firearm subforum, where a member innocently shared links to firearm centric posts. Your immediate response was to disregard the topic, the people here and their viewpoints. You took the complexity of firearms and self-defence as an ideological ethos and dumbed it down to a few crass insults and a self-righteous crusade against people who made their choice (for better or worse) using arguments that derive wholly from circumstantial correlation. Yes, some people deal with trauma as a result of taking a life- no one is disputing that. 

But many don't. many feel safer owning firearms and a significant portion of people, especially here would have zero reservations with regards to taking a life to protect others. 

Your arguments are not helpful and I hope you take the time to re-read what you have read and realize that the following verbiage;

13 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

maybe if i was like You and made my living selling terrified victims of violence a gun as an answer to their problems...i might see yours.

Is incendiary, disrespectful and borderline malicious. I don't know @zackmars very well, but I know his intentions are not predatory in nature as your response alludes to.

 

17 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

Fault me for it If You must.  I will be the one speaking to the fruitlessness of violence, and cleaning up the mess that happens to people, who walk or fall into this without conscience of consequence

Dan, you are not a martyr. Everyone has trials and tribulations to bear and whilst I am sure your work is difficult, it is not just cause to, for the lack of a better term- shit on others. Your experiences to do not give you the right to inject yourself in all firearm discussions as a paragon of moral authority. I can quite happily take the position of a rape survivor who defended herself and would be aghast at your rationalizations.

17 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

I like guns. However, I do not have murder in my heart, and that is a burden i will always find freedom in, and express that freedom in what i do for a living to keep others breathing.

 

13 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

It has become a pathology in your part of the world and it is time to wake up to how sick people have become about guns.

I am going to level with you Dan- your diatribe has done more harm to your message than you not commenting would have done. You have convinced literally zero people. In fact, by forming such a hostile message you have galvanized opinion to the point that I doubt anyone would side with you after reading this thread objectively.

Its tantamount to being against violence and declaring it to the world with a molotov cocktail in your hand. Its counter-productive. If you want to have a discussion on the matter, you are welcome to seek conversation (in your own thread- not one pertaining to pistols vs revolved for CCW). 

As you know I abhor censorship and will never do it, but before responding please take a collective breath and think about the people you are responding to instead of sounding off at grown adults who made their choice and are happy to live with it. 

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Dan Seven    1,300

Thanks Thomas:

i apologize to the Forum, especially @zackmars and any others, for taking my argument too far, for the fact that i may have hurt someone's feelings.

Clearly I recognize that I have gone too far on this subject and for that I am sorry. 

Won't happen again.

 

 

 

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Thomas    903
13 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

Thanks Thomas:

i apologize to the Forum, especially @zackmars and any others, for taking my argument too far, for the fact that i may have hurt someone's feelings.

Clearly I recognize that I have gone too far on this subject and for that I am sorry. 

Won't happen again.

 

 

 

No worries mate, I completely understand your position and why you are so emotional regarding its impact. Remember that the Deep Thoughts & Emotional Support is always around if you need to vent. 

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KCM    58

Back on target.  Here's some good advice for new shooters for selecting the correct weapon for concealed carry:

 

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KCM    58
On 7/28/2017 at 1:24 PM, KCM said:

Back on target.  Here's some good advice for new shooters for selecting the correct weapon for concealed carry:

 

Sorry!  I went back and read the latest comments.  I wasn't trying to be insensitive with the "Back on target" comment.  It came back to me as "blunt", at least.

I think Thomas was right.  We can stay on topic and still discuss our opinions by starting a new post rather than straying off subject.

I was about to ask to leave the forum because of the "distractions" on topic posts.  But, having read all of your comments (slower), I applaud everyone's maturity and willingness to talk to each other.  That's how families succeed.

Zachmars, Dan Seven, Thomas.  Keep on teaching!

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elde    0

i dont need any "god" to tell me that I'm MORE than ok with ridding the earth of some pos. Somebody with "limited arm strength" is not going to like the P938, not at all and she might well not be much for training enough to always disengage the safety, either. If she can handle the DA pull, I suggest a Kahr 380,  with Corbon Jhp ammo, or wadcutter match ammo in a steel framed .38 Chief's special (or taurus copy, if it's checked out by a pro)

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zackmars    501
58 minutes ago, elde said:

i dont need any "god" to tell me that I'm MORE than ok with ridding the earth of some pos. Somebody with "limited arm strength" is not going to like the P938, not at all and she might well not be much for training enough to always disengage the safety, either. If she can handle the DA pull, I suggest a Kahr 380,  with Corbon Jhp ammo, or wadcutter match ammo in a steel framed .38 Chief's special (or taurus copy, if it's checked out by a pro)

She shot several guns before buying, including kahrs.

 

She liked the sig, and could use it fine

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elde    0

the 15 oz 9mm jumps around quite a bit. normal 9mm jhp ammo doesnt expand in animal tests from such short barrels. She needs the Corbon 100 gr jhp. It's over  1300 fps from a 3" barrel, so it does expand in animals and it's delivering 350 ft lbs.  But the repeat hit time is going to be slow for someone who is not strong and skilled. just "firing" a few guns and having real ability are not the same thing. Of course, nearly everyone is in the same boat as she is. They are mostly just bluffing, and most of the time, it DOES work.

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zackmars    501
1 hour ago, elde said:

the 15 oz 9mm jumps around quite a bit. normal 9mm jhp ammo doesnt expand in animal tests from such short barrels. She needs the Corbon 100 gr jhp. It's over  1300 fps from a 3" barrel, so it does expand in animals and it's delivering 350 ft lbs.  But the repeat hit time is going to be slow for someone who is not strong and skilled. just "firing" a few guns and having real ability are not the same thing. Of course, nearly everyone is in the same boat as she is. They are mostly just bluffing, and most of the time, it DOES work.

Yeah, she was really bluffing when she shot the guns, all with 147 gr lawman

 

It's not the 1970's if you think the 9mm sucks out of short barrels and animal testing is where its at, your info is seriously out of date. By close to 4 decades

 

Energy doesn't mean much, a love tap from a bus that knocks you over imparts more energy than some calibers

 

She doesn't need some light for caliber projectile. In very few situations is that ever an appropriate answer.

 

I love how you can judge the abilities of my customers better than i can, despite you having ZERO first hand knowledge of the event.

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elde    0

right, and now jello is a more viable test means than flesh and blood. I guarantee that the 900 fps 147, from a 3" barrel, does not expand in flesh and blood. Since you dont even have a shooting timer, much less any idea what sort of repeat hit speed constitutes real ability, I'll put it this way. If you hold a coin over your head, and drop it, can she watch you and at the drop, get 3 chest hits at 10 ft, before the coin hits the ground? That's a bit slow, but it's all most people can manage. The 147 is the very worst choice you can make for the small 9mm's.  YOU are the one who has no knowlege of what's real in flesh and blood. You don't even think that matters, is how far off your "thinking" is. 

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zackmars    501
1 hour ago, elde said:

right, and now jello is a more viable test means than flesh and blood. I guarantee that the 900 fps 147, from a 3" barrel, does not expand in flesh and blood. Since you dont even have a shooting timer, much less any idea what sort of repeat hit speed constitutes real ability, I'll put it this way. If you hold a coin over your head, and drop it, can she watch you and at the drop, get 3 chest hits at 10 ft, before the coin hits the ground? That's a bit slow, but it's all most people can manage. The 147 is the very worst choice you can make for the small 9mm's.  YOU are the one who has no knowlege of what's real in flesh and blood. You don't even think that matters, is how far off your "thinking" is. 

Yes, ballistics gelatin is better, animals aren't exactly humans, and are different in many many ways. Ballistics gelatin gives you a consistent result that can be compared to other ballistics gel tests

 

As for 147 gr performance out of short barrels, I've seen hogs dropped with ranger t, hst, and gold dots, and they expanded perfectly out of a G26.

 

We have a shooting timer. Out of a fullsize cz75b, glock 17, g26, walther ppq and pps, vp9sk. her split with the cz75b was 1.5 seconds faster, but she greatly preferred the sig's size and ergonomics. Limited are strength doesn't mean someone can't shoot. So please stop making assumptions.

 

I'm know what I'm talking about. I'm not the one MMQB'ing an event i have no clue about.

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