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elde

WAY too many people believe the crud, put out by

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the ammo and bullet industry and by the gun press. You need at least 1000 fps to reliably expand a .45 jhp in flesh and blood, and 1200 fps in order to do the same with a .36 bore. The reason is that a hp expands due to hydraulic forces. As fluid-filled tissue is force into and out of the nose cavity, the flow/friction causes the weak edges of the nose cavity to yield in an outward direction. But if that flow/force is inadequate, the hp does not expand much (if at all).  You typically need the lightest (for caliber) jhps, at plus P speeds, to get reliable expansion of a jhp in flesh and blood. Lhps, you can get by with 100 fps less. The REASON  185 gr .45' jhps exist is that it became widely known that the 230 gr jhp's did not expand reliably.  The reason 165 gr .45 jhp's exist is that the  185 gr loads were spotty about expansion from short barrels and are hard to control  in rapidfire, when fired in a 7" long,  25 oz gun. But you have to shoot animals, chronograph loads, have a shooting timer, know what speed of repeat hits IS, none of which you know/possess/have done.

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57 minutes ago, ratter said:

Is there any evidence that he was not correct?

It's around, lots of write ups out there by Dr. Gary Roberts and others.check lightfighter, pistol-forum, and maybe m4carbine. While not as technical, TNoutdoors9 makes some good videos

 

He was right about HP's needing hydraulic force to expand, but decades of testing and examinations of real world shootings disprove his other statements.

 

The biggest factor in handgun projectiles is penetration, after all, hadguns only stop the fight if a critical organ is shut down, other wise you are playing a waiting game hoping the threat stops due to blood loss.

Penetration is the biggest problem with light for caliber bullets, they just dont have the ability to get to the important bits.

 

Id rather carry FMJ's than a super lightweight JHP

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bs, penetration beyond the vitals is pointless and that's mostly what you get. I'd happily settle for a bullet that "only" penetrates 8" of animal flesh, live ones, now, if it destroys lots of tissue and has lots of energy for shock effect. The more you destroy and shock/hurt the mofo, the more likely he is to NOTICE that he's hit. He has to NOTICE in order for psych factors to have an effect. Blood loss ALWAYS takes at least  4 seconds, which is at least  3 seconds way too damned slow.  60 gr 223 softpoints stop people RFN, while 30 AK ball fails quite often, despite (because of, actually) they penetrate much more deeply. The problem with ammo is not that it under penetrates, it's that it doesn't expand waf in flesh and blood.  Jello performance means nothing. They ADMIT that it doens't simulate organ tissue. They'll flat out tell you that it's just for comparisons of how loads do in jello. Marshall is just a fucking liar. Many instances of his claims to have insider info have been proven to be lies. I've shot hundreds of animals with CCW type guns and loads. I KNOW what works in flesh and blood and it's only the lightest, fastest bullets in each caliber.  We need a 100 gr jhp in .40.  135 gr is either too slow or has too much recoil in a lw, compact ccw pistol. When you get more than 16 factor recoil momentum, you've got control problems that you dont need. My 500 ft lb load for my Sig P938 has a 10 factor recoil.   45 grs at 2200 fps. Solid aluminum, hollowbased, hp, slit nearly in half lengthwise. Animal tests prove it to be more effective than 125 gr jhp's in 2.5" barrels, and the Sig is just 6"x4.5" and 15 ozs.  it's also AP, so that's a nice extra.  and the recol is that of a Makarov. When I practice with the  Sig, it's with  125 gr lrn at  800 fps, but most of my practicing is with an alloy framed 9mm commander variant, using  160 gr lrn at 850 fps. That low velocity keeps the fouling down and prevents keyholing.  I dont like having the fouling and wear of practice on my ccw pistol. 

The value of the pre-segmented bullet, at Mach II is that the segments penetrate clothing skin and sternum/ribs as one piece, then the unstable, full length segments diverge, giving two wound tracks. Due to the very high impact velocites, the temporary gas cavities WILL damage organ tissue that gets "caught" between the two temporary caviities.🙂

Edited by ratter

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12 minutes ago, ratter said:

bs, penetration beyond the vitals is pointless and that's mostly what you get. I'd happily settle for a bullet that "only" penetrates 8" of animal flesh, live ones, now, if it destroys lots of tissue and has lots of energy for shock effect. The more you destroy and shock/hurt the mofo, the more likely he is to NOTICE that he's hit. He has to NOTICE in order for psych factors to have an effect. Blood loss ALWAYS takes at least  4 seconds, which is at least  3 seconds way too damned slow.  60 gr 223 softpoints stop people RFN, while 30 AK ball fails quite often, despite (because of, actually) they penetrate much more deeply. The problem with ammo is not that it under penetrates, it's that it doesn't expand waf in flesh and blood.  Jello performance means nothing. They ADMIT that it doens't simulate organ tissue. They'll flat out tell you that it's just for comparisons of how loads do in jello. Marshall is just a fucking liar. Many instances of his claims to have insider info have been proven to be lies. I've shot hundreds of animals with CCW type guns and loads. I KNOW what works in flesh and blood and it's only the lightest, fastest bullets in each caliber.  We need a 100 gr jhp in .40.  135 gr is either too slow or has too much recoil in a lw, compact ccw pistol. When you get more than 16 factor recoil momentum, you've got control problems that you dont need. My 500 ft lb load for my Sig P938 has a 10 factor recoil.   45 grs at 2200 fps. Solid aluminum, hollowbased, hp, slit nearly in half lengthwise. Animal tests prove it to be more effective than 125 gr jhp's in 2.5" barrels, and the Sig is just 6"x4.5" and 15 ozs.  it's also AP, so that's a nice extra.  and the recol is that of a Makarov. When I practice with the  Sig, it's with  125 gr lrn at  800 fps, but most of my practicing is with an alloy framed 9mm commander variant, using  160 gr lrn at 850 fps. That low velocity keeps the fouling down and prevents keyholing.  I dont like having the fouling and wear of practice on my ccw pistol. 

The value of the pre-segmented bullet, at Mach II is that the segments penetrate clothing skin and sternum/ribs as one piece, then the unstable, full length segments diverge, giving two wound tracks. Due to the very high impact velocites, the temporary gas cavities WILL damage organ tissue that gets "caught" between the two temporary caviities.🙂

You are missing the point. Ballistics gel is not meant to simulate tissue, it is supposed to provide a stable, controllable medium to compare one round to another.

 

It is formulated to be CLOSE to human tissue, yes, but not meant to be exactly the same. The reason why so much penetration is required is because people have bones that protect important organs.

 

Its funny how the rounds that do REALLY well in ballistics get testing has a very good record in the streets? Gold dot, HST, the various winchester loadings, all have excellent reputations. If you really had the answer, you'd have big bucks and all the ammo companies trying to get you to design for them.

 

But you don't, and if i have to pick between shade tree ballistics, or millions of dollars of research and decades of real world data, its not a hard choice

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