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WiseGuy

Best all-around caliber for BOB weapon?

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Oh yeah. If you want nearly unlimited frogs.... Take a stick and hit the water beside the frog, the shock wave stuns the frog and you just pick them up. If you actually hit them they just fall apart on dissection ( myself and two friends gathered enough for the high school biology class in about 15 minutes  ). About as low tech hunting as you can do.

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So many choices, so many options, so many opinions. This particular question comes up so much in survival forums that you'd think there would be an answer to this question by now............ Myself, I don't have an answer. I have many firearms and an abundance of ammo yet I remain unsettled as to which may be the best. Bare in mind that there are advantages to all calibers, and disadvantages too.
First of all, I'm not an advocate of 'bugging out'. Unless the area in which I live becomes uninhabitable, I will be home for the duration. My biggest concern in the event that things go awry would be to get home. In that case what would I have as far as a firearm? My 9mm. That's my get home weapon. I have 3 15 round mags.
However, if I should have to leave, well that's a different story. I guess it all depends what I'm bugging out into. I mean what is the situation? Has all chaos broken out? Is it like extremely dangerous out there where I may find myself having to defend my life? Or will it be me going out and surviving off the land on my own in an attempt to stay away from government settlement camps? I don't know....... I guess my selection of weapons is dependent on what I'm bugging out into. That decision will be made when the time comes. 
So currently I have no preference. I just say whatever you decide, use it effectively, use it wisely.

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I do agree that a 22 is the best for me and my BOB.  I picked an H&R 9 shot revolver with a 6 inch barrel,  because I can shoot Shorts, Longs, Long Rifles and Bird Shot.  Rounds per pound was also part of the choice.  I have semi autos and I love to shoot them but the maintenance on them in the wild for any extended period could be an issue. (cold and wet)  Some Semi autos are picky on ammo and clips cause most failures for me.  The wheel gun is most reliable for me. Mine is a newer model with the transfer bar and no exposed firing pin which is safer. No doubt that a 22 is very capable of putting food on the table. 

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Hi Clarence:

Nice to read your post..I am a bit old school. and a single shot for me is a very reliable

choice and 'having a jam', seems like a sad choice for not getting dinner in the field.

I think it made me a better shot over the years as i only had one chance to make it count.

Having said that, i know other hands more experienced than mine are all about semis, the

Ruger 10-22 coming to mind. Jackrabbit hunting with a buddy, the common unspoken deal 

was for him to take the flushed short range stuff with his semi, and if still not down after

50 yards when they straighten out, it was my turn. It was hard to top the 3/4" inch target barrel

i was toting after after that distance for a precise shot, and especially when game sits still.

Though illegal, game like ducks and geese will sometimes stay put on the field with a .22 short,

especially if they are in a a large noisy group. They may not rise till a couple are flopping around

freaking them all out. Course a .22 will bring down a goose at the same distance a shotgun will.

cheers

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/14/2015 at 3:35 PM, Gary_Gough said:

Oh yeah. If you want nearly unlimited frogs.... Take a stick and hit the water beside the frog, the shock wave stuns the frog and you just pick them up. If you actually hit them they just fall apart on dissection ( myself and two friends gathered enough for the high school biology class in about 15 minutes  ). About as low tech hunting as you can do.

Interrupting to say.. um coolest fact I've read all day. Did not even have any idea this was a thing, lol.

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Everybody wants firepower in there bob but mine consist of a 9 mm sidearm and a take down recurve and 6 arrows last thing I want to do is blast away to give away my position

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hey chief...and welcome..

2 hours ago, chief33 said:

Everybody wants firepower in there bob but mine consist of a 9 mm sidearm and a take down recurve and 6 arrows last thing I want to do is blast away to give away my position

Just to say, firepower that would fit in a bug out bag may be illegal to carry in most countries.

Survivalists are an interesting bunch. Some just want a layer of protection for when chaos enters into the daily routine, still others look for it as an opportunity to conduct a full military exercise out of their life.

To each their own.

cheers

Edited by Dan Seven

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All this historical talk is reminding me of what hunters used in the old country, shotguns with "brenneke" rounds. I very rarely saw people with rifles.

Plumbata_shotgun_slugs.thumb.JPG.932dccf

 

I think these kinds of rounds are a primarily European thing though- have yet to see anyone using them in Canada but it really brought home to me the idea of the shotgun as such a versatile tool.

Bird shot: cheap. small game

Buck shot: Close range, 2 legged predators.

Brenneke: 50 yards.

If your shotgun is rifled, slugs can be reasonably accurate at sub 100 yards too.

 

Some food for thought.

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While I agree that a ACCURATE tack driving .22 is a versatile choice for a BOB tool, how about a 12 gauge shotgun with sub-cal insert?

These are basically a tube of alloy with a .22 barrel inside. They can be inserted in to the bore of a 12g shotgun (other calibres available) and you now have a double calibre tool. This system has a added advantage of somewhat silencing the report from the .22 a small amount.

Particularly nice in a side/side or over/under shotgun as this will give you 2x options to be used at same time. Have used one in my various pump actions for years. These conversions are very short to go in through loading gate or through breech. NOT as accurate as the insert is short and the insert has to be aligned to enable the firing pin to engage rim of case. Good option for that coup de grace shot too. Cheaper and less messy.

The more expensive/accurate options are about 15inches long and have a rubber o ring to keep them centred and protect bore.

I'm sure you can all imagine the versatility of having a gun/rifle that can collect small varmints for the pot and larger ones as well, OR be used as a weapon.  Many a time I've been out hunting small game and stumbled upon larger game e.g. pigs.

Years ago, some manufactures made .222/12 gauge + .22/410 g and other over/under rifle options. Great option for those who want 1x tool with adaptability.

Edited by kiwitransient
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2 hours ago, kiwitransient said:

While I agree that a ACCURATE tack driving .22 is a versatile choice for a BOB tool, how about a 12 gauge shotgun with sub-cal insert?

These are basically a tube of alloy with a .22 barrel inside. They can be inserted in to the bore of a 12g shotgun (other calibres available) and you now have a double calibre tool. This system has a added advantage of somewhat silencing the report from the .22 a small amount.

Particularly nice in a side/side or over/under shotgun as this will give you 2x options to be used at same time. Have used one in my various pump actions for years. These conversions are very short to go in through loading gate or through breech. NOT as accurate as the insert is short and the insert has to be aligned to enable the firing pin to engage rim of case. Good option for that coup de grace shot too. Cheaper and less messy.

The more expensive/accurate options are about 15inches long and have a rubber o ring to keep them centred and protect bore.

I'm sure you can all imagine the versatility of having a gun/rifle that can collect small varmints for the pot and larger ones as well, OR be used as a weapon.  Many a time I've been out hunting small game and stumbled upon larger game e.g. pigs.

Years ago, some manufactures made .222/12 gauge + .22/410 g and other over/under rifle options. Great option for those who want 1x tool with adaptability.

Those .222/12ga can still be found in Europe, very cool and practical in my opinion with extreme resilience to mechanical failure due to a lack of moving parts/feeding system.

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So....speaking of handguns....which gun out there is pretty small and pretty cheap? Every so often I get a notion that I want to get a carry permit. If I carry I  don't want bulk. The smaller the better, but also effective enough for protection. And....it doesn't have to be pink. Ha ha :)

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Well, no such thing as a carry permit here, so take this as just a target plinker opinion. Find a gun that fits your hand and points naturally. That is going to be determined by both your hand and the gun design. Cheap... well check estate sales, gun shops, private dealers.

A good way to show what not to get. A derringer pistol. Yes it fits inside your hand, but it doesn't fit in your hand. Single action with the firing pin being part of the hammer, so if it has a chambered round ( which is the only way it's usable for it's intended purpose )  it's prone to going off if bumped if the hammer is down, if it's pulled back it's even more likely to go off accidentally. A very easily concealed way to injure yourself or a bystander. Killing yourself is one of those things you'll never live down ( yes I intended to say it that way ). A flint lock would be safer and easier to hit a target with.

Maybe look at a .22 autoloader , something like http://www.beretta.com/en/u22-neos-/

It's not a hand cannon , but I doubt if you'll find anyone that wants to be in front of one that goes off. It's going to hurt.

Other +s , cheap ammo so lots of practice isn't going to break your bank account. Ambidextrous design, safety is available to both right and left handed. 

Anyhow you also want safe habits. The best design can still be dangerous if handled badly, of course there is often no way to safely handle a bad design short of welding the chamber closed and mounting it as a wall hanging. There is no good reason to carry with a round in the chamber, it takes less then a second to chamber one and it isn't going to happen by accident. Practising a quick draw with a chambered round is how that viral video of a guy shooting himself in the leg happened ( if you watch he also only missed his foot by an inch at most ). I've also seen guns that would fire as soon as the safety was taken off if the trigger had been pulled while the safety was on. If you find a gun like that don't buy it unless you know you can get it fixed.

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Thomas, those Brenneke were popular here for Pigs a few decades ago. Seemed to have priced themselves off market as not seen here now. Impressive accuracy.

We used to make up solid 12g and 410g rounds, by pouring hot wax into shot after opening front of case.

Sometimes sawed off 410g shotguns were loaded with .44 cal. rounds and used on pigs after dogs had bailed them.

Probably not the safest thing to do, but never heard of any blowing up or ballooning barrels.

Edited by kiwitransient

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On ‎18‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 11:16 AM, Thomas said:

Those .222/12ga can still be found in Europe, very cool and practical in my opinion with extreme resilience to mechanical failure due to a lack of moving parts/feeding system.

Was that due to restriction in ammunition calibres available after WW2 or for practical reasons?

I know that in Australia that .303 calibre was banned due to it being a military calibre, so there were a LOT of conversions to other calibres in Lee Enfields rifles.

At gun shows here (Almost a thing of the past) one sees a quite varied spread of calibres available in over/under European rifles. All very well made and expensive. Plus quite a few British side/side heavy rifles. And they ARE heavy for sporting rifle. I sure wouldn't want to fire a light weight .575 H&R rifle.

Fired a mates .475 Jefferies once while at a bench. Once is the word, NEVER again..

Darn glad I didn't fire it before my Skeet competion, I would have been flinching like someone was beating me with a piece of wood.!

Reminded me of the first time I fired a .303 when  7 years old. Made my eyes water. Must have been a windy day....

Edited by kiwitransient
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A shotgun has major disadvantages, and they tend to be forgotten when talking about them

 

Weight. In average 1 shotgun shell weighs in at 1 to 1.5 oz, that's for one shell. With an 7-8 lb shotgun, that adds up. 

 

Size. Everything on a shotgun is bigger, the ammo, the gun itself... in fact, in the space of 25 shotshells, you can fit 90 rounds of 5.56 (on stripper clips), 65 rounds of 7.62×54r (on clips), 75 rounds of .30 carbine  (in 15 round magazines)

 

Capacity. If you have a tube fed shotgun, your capacity is really held captive to your barrel length, 20" will get around 7, while your average 18.5 will get 5. While this isn't the hugest deal ever, it's still a good idea to have more, which can be difficult with a shotgun.

 

Manual of arms. Watching a pro run a pump shotgun, its like a sewing machine, there's so much going on, tons of movement... while it looks cool, it introduces the opportunity for failure, what if you short stroke the action? What if you fumble on the reload? 

 

While the above can occur on any firearm, you have to realize that on a shotgun, you are constantly doing those actions, constantly working the pump, constantly feeding new shells into the tube. Of course the answer is to train a lot, but it takes a lot more work to become proficient with a shotgun than it is with a rifle

 

Power. People always veiw the shotgun as a magical death ray, but it really isn't. Unless you get a solid hit on a persons CNS, dont expect them to go down. Even if you do get a good CNS hit, there is no guarantee he/she/it will stay down, or even slowed down. And when you are using a heavy recoiling, low capacity firearm, you can see the problem.

 

Slugs. Slugs can extend the useful range of your shotgun, but you still have a shotgun, heavy recoil, slow follow-up shots, and low capacity. You may not have the time for a follow-up shot.

 

Ammo types. The shotgun is viewed as a "do all" gun because of all the different types of ammo, birdshot for small game, buck for defense, and slugs for big game, so on and so forth.

Well, while buckshot does work well for defense, you still have to contend with the shotguns shortcomings. And while birdshot is good for small game, a .22lr pistol or takedown rifle is a much better choice, quieter, and lighter.

"But i can switch from birdshot to slugs if i need to"

Sure, but that requires a lot of movement, cycle through your entire magazine, and load up a different type of ammo? Or you could just sling your .22 rifle or holster your handgun, and swap to your primary.

 

I've been on dozens of hog hunts, quite a few were shotgun only, shooting at tough, moving targets, the shotguns weaknesses become evident.

 

It should be remembered that the shotgun is remembered as a "do all" because 99% of households had them, and couldn't afford much else. It's reputation was born out of necessity, when rifles were far more expensive than they are now.

 

Don't get me wrong, if i need to nab a bunch of birds, a shotgun is what I'll grab, but there aren't many other situations where i will take it over a centerfire rifle.

Edited by zackmars
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On 2/19/2016 at 10:48 AM, kiwitransient said:

Was that due to restriction in ammunition calibres available after WW2 or for practical reasons?

I know that in Australia that .303 calibre was banned due to it being a military calibre, so there were a LOT of conversions to other calibres in Lee Enfields rifles.

At gun shows here (Almost a thing of the past) one sees a quite varied spread of calibres available in over/under European rifles. All very well made and expensive. Plus quite a few British side/side heavy rifles. And they ARE heavy for sporting rifle. I sure wouldn't want to fire a light weight .575 H&R rifle.

Fired a mates .475 Jefferies once while at a bench. Once is the word, NEVER again..

Darn glad I didn't fire it before my Skeet competion, I would have been flinching like someone was beating me with a piece of wood.!

Reminded me of the first time I fired a .303 when  7 years old. Made my eyes water. Must have been a windy day....

Exactly, in most EU countries, .223 is not allowed as a "sporting caliber" hence the adoption of .222 . You can even get 10 round Ar-15's in .222!

 

Never played with large bore express rifles- I can imagine that the recoil must be brutal!

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That's one crazy shotgun Gary! My Mossberg does kick like a mule. Got an SKS for Christmas (to myself ?). I don't have a restricted license so no handguns. 

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@zackmars Great write up on the relative virtues of shotguns. 

Here where i am on the Mississippi Flyway, when the Geese and Ducks come through,

a hunting party can fill a freezer in the afternoon with cleaned birds. So I agree that

harvesting birds on the wing is the big appeal. Sometimes more than 2 come down at once.

So a 12ga is not a calibre of "convenience" for the reasons that You pointed out, yet there 

is a versatility in shotshells that allows smaller game and larger game to be taken short range.

The shotgun is a blunt instrument and for those who like precision instruments, a finely crafted

shotgun as artful as it may be, is still a "scattergun". There in lies it's usefulness and limitation.

cheers

 

 

 

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More important than caliber, weapon type, etc is your ability to move and remain unnoticed. If a fire fight is forced upon you, you do not have to fight until all enemies are eliminated. There are more one shot stops on record for .22LR than any other caliber. It is a very versatile round. If you can't afford your "ideal" weapon, use what you have. Even the most expensive, tricked-out, custom firearm is not worth a dime without training and practice. That said, it really depends on your situation. If I was in an urban area, a bolt action is not what I would prefer. If I was in the mountains, a large caliber anything would be ok. I could trap and snare small game. Really just depends on your personal situation. Any firearm is better than none if you need one. Lots of good replies and info on this thread!

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Unable to comment on the AK47 as a Deer rifle, but certainly take umbrage about the 303 Lee Enfield as not being good for killing Deer !

My Father (along with lots of others) was a Professional Deer Culler in N.Z. after WW2, and standard issue was a 303 with FMJ rounds. (full metal jacket) They used to file down tips for use on pigs at close range as they wanted to drop them hard and fast if in Jungle and not using dogs to bail.(then knife was used)

These guys shot literally thousands of deer with 303s. Highest tally I heard of was 375 in one day.. only tails were kept for bounty.

They had to be one shot kills or it came off bounty. If one was not a good shot, no money in the pot!

Thar and Chamois were also targeted.

So, yes, they will do the job !

I guess the equivalent in USA would be the 30/30. (which I really like, as so comfortable to carry in hand ALL day)

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@kiwitransient This is an interesting write up about your Dad's experience with the Enfield.

On my 2nd Enfield, the one here is a Jungle Carbine, original bayonet and sling.

This is a hard hitting round in my opinion. Ballistics are closer to the the 30-06 than 30-30.

By no means a modern cartridge, it is still used as a Moose rifle here in Canada, with the largest Rack ever taken with the .303, as testament to the fact that it has some stopping power.

The endearing quality to the Enfield is that it can put up with a fair amount of dirt in the field by virtue of the way the rounds are chambered. The shoulder is thrown forward on the brass when fired, as it was designed in such a way that if there was some grit in the chamber, it would still allow a round to seat acceptably.

Bolt guns are inherently reliable. Following is part of a true sttory..

Newman, 39, described the attack that followed from his bed at Sitka Community Hospital.

"He looked like a freight train coming at me," says Newman, who managed to get one shot off before his rifle jammed and the bear knocked him down. "He's crunching the bones in my left leg, and I'm trying to get my gun to work." The bear finally seemed to run out of energy, walked away, and died.

Newman called the Coast Guard on his handheld radio and was evacuated by helicopter. He sustained fractures to his left leg, ankle, and arm, and his right hand and forearm, as well as numerous puncture wounds.

"After I shot him, he had 30 seconds to live," Newman says. "In the meantime he chewed on me pretty good."

I have nothing against semi automatics or modern bolt rifles, but dependability is key. From what i have read, this Guide was well respected..

This Big Brown Bear was shot several times with a Sako .416 Remington Magnum, 400g loads, with push-feed system. Fine Rifle actually.

I am guessing that just goes to show that for big game, especially predatory, in as much as large calibres are involved, and when surprise attacks occur, the gun had better bloody well work.

cheers

 

 

 

Edited by Dan Seven

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Unable to comment on the AK47 as a Deer rifle, but certainly take umbrage about the 303 Lee Enfield as not being good for killing Deer !

My Father (along with lots of others) was a Professional Deer Culler in N.Z. after WW2, and standard issue was a 303 with FMJ rounds. (full metal jacket) They used to file down tips for use on pigs at close range as they wanted to drop them hard and fast if in Jungle and not using dogs to bail.(then knife was used)

These guys shot literally thousands of deer with 303s. Highest tally I heard of was 375 in one day.. only tails were kept for bounty.

They had to be one shot kills or it came off bounty. If one was not a good shot, no money in the pot!

Thar and Chamois were also targeted.

So, yes, they will do the job !

I guess the equivalent in USA would be the 30/30. (which I really like, as so comfortable to carry in hand ALL day)

The 303 is far superior to the 30/30 as far as range and accuracy. The AK's 7.62x39 ballistics are more similar to the 30/30. I have an old enfield and absolutely love it.

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Cheers for replies. Yes, I am aware of the differences in ballistics between 30/30 and .303. The 303 will definitely out shoot the 30/30 at range. However, the 30/30 lever action is FAR superior for dragging through the Jungle here and the hitting power on goats, deer and pigs at 10 meters (or less)  is not worth the extra hassle of carrying the .303. (in my opinion)

I just love the balance of my Winchester Saddle Carbine with 16 inch barrel. JOY. Especially when on hands and knees pushing it up hill ahead of me when leopard crawling up a Pig Runnel. :S

I  merely made the comparison between the .303 and 30/30 as I've read that the 30/30 is reportedly claimed for dropping more deer in USA than any other calibre. Same with the .303 here..

And, No Dan, I don't have a bayonet on the end of my 30/30 B|

Edited by kiwitransient

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