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kenne

jello testing is bs, it does NOT perform like living tissue

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and you do NOT want 15" of jello penetration. You get MORE penetration in flesh than in jello and you get more in winter, due to the clogging of the hp cavity by heavy clothing. So you want  165 gr plus P  Corbon jhp in .45 and 100 gr Corbons in 9mm., so that you "only" get 10" of penetration in actual live targets.  you aint a cop, dont be firing to penetrate cars, etc, cause you can''t see if innocents are being endangered by your fire. If he's using cover, he's little or no threat to you.  EVERY rd that you richochet or overpenetrate with, you OWN, bro. if it hits an innocent, your life is ruined forever. If he's behind cover YOU better get to cover. Once you have cover, all you have to do is prevent him outflanking your cover. Do NOT fire at cover users, unless it's shtf and you have a RIFLE.  Just stay well back from cover, have your gun/arms fully extended and be READY to fire as you "peek" around cover, at different points of cover. Best to be PRONE behind cover, btw. ONLY fire if he's fully exposed, or else you're just wasting ammo  that you might well need, and you're endangering innocents (for no reason).

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nobody is going to be charging you on their hands and knees, butt first. That is the ONLY way that you might "need" the 20" of penetration some claim you need from a defensive load. you do not have to fully penetrate an organ to destroy its utility for its owner. A hole in "just' one side of heart and lung destroys that organs ability to function Dont kid yourself that a bullet that "only" penetrates 3" aint lethal, cause it sure as h IS.  You DO want 8-10" of penetration (in flesh) but that's ALL you want. that is plenty to allow for arm first and bad angle hits.  Unless you've got a double stack 10mm, forget about being able to pierce BOTH barricade materials and adequately pierce people on the far side of that "cover". Instead, you'd have to load alternately "piercers" and "stoppers", and use your entire magazine and probably still never get a good hit. Then you're out of ammo when you DO get the chance to hit a fully exposed, charging enemy.

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The 14" gel requirement set by the FBI is to give a margin of error should the bullet run into, say, an arm (which is quite a common occurrence if you do any FoF training) or any number of occurrences where a COM shot is either impossible, or not preferred.

 

Most any modern, quality HP projectile does not clog when put up against heavy coats, or the protocol standard 4 layers of denim, this isn't the 1980's, nor are the black talons the only game in town.

 

A final point, what the FBI, and every ballistics labratory/researcher worth their salt uses is not "jello", but rather a gelatin that is specifically formulated to resemble muscle tissue as closely as possible

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin

 

What you actually want is a high quality expading projectile, like speer gold dot, or federal HST's. You do not carry handguns because they are good fight stoppers, you carry them because they are better than nothing, and no matter what you cram into the chamber, nothing will change that.

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the industry openly admits that their jello does not match performance in flesh and blood. all you have to do is shoot some animals and see that what you're saying is bs. If you hit an arm first, you MISSED, so why blame the rd, hmm?  you are not going to get both shock/destruction and lots of penetration unless you carry a 5"  .460 Rowland.  Why hurt your chest hit performance to get a hair better penetration if you hit an arm first? it's just stupid. 

 

the right handgun ammo can be MANY times more likely to suffice than the crap youre touting. as in 95%, instead of 80%, 1 failure in 20 chest hits, vs 4 such failures.  4x as good.  Believe the maker's bs all you want, but a 223 carbine softpoint drops men at 100m  like rag dolls. 2300 fps.  the closer you can get your handgun load to being 70 grs  at 2300 fps, the more likely it is to suffice and yes, you CAN get such performance in a ccw pistol. The .460 Rowland commander produces it with ease. The split nose bullet also gives you two wound tracks with every hit.

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13 hours ago, kenne said:

the industry openly admits that their jello does not match performance in flesh and blood. all you have to do is shoot some animals and see that what you're saying is bs. If you hit an arm first, you MISSED, so why blame the rd, hmm?  you are not going to get both shock/destruction and lots of penetration unless you carry a 5"  .460 Rowland.  Why hurt your chest hit performance to get a hair better penetration if you hit an arm first? it's just stupid. 

 

the right handgun ammo can be MANY times more likely to suffice than the crap youre touting. as in 95%, instead of 80%, 1 failure in 20 chest hits, vs 4 such failures.  4x as good.  Believe the maker's bs all you want, but a 223 carbine softpoint drops men at 100m  like rag dolls. 2300 fps.  the closer you can get your handgun load to being 70 grs  at 2300 fps, the more likely it is to suffice and yes, you CAN get such performance in a ccw pistol. The .460 Rowland commander produces it with ease. The split nose bullet also gives you two wound tracks with every hit.

The industry openly admits this? Please show me where they've said this.

 

Ballistics gelatin is structured to resemble flesh as closely as possible, and shooting animals is nothing like shooting people, look at a deer or a hog, vs a human. Different bone and muscle structure, even different psychological reactions. Apples to oranges

 

Look at how someone holds a handgun, or a rifle. It will be infront of their chest, so (again) if you have ANY experience with Force On Force training, you know how common it is to get hit in the arms or hands, every round commonly used for defensive purposes can easily pass through an arm. I'm not blaming the round, but instead being realistic about what handguns are capable of.

 

Please cite source fpr your numbers, and also explain what on earth you are talking about.

 

Nobody was talking about rifles, but since you brought it up. 

 

No, not even a .50BMG will turn people into ragdolls, let alone .223, this is real life, not a B-grade action movie.

 

.460 rowland? Uh, no

 

I don't want to be too confrontational, but your posts seem to consist of nothing but bad ideas and anger. There is a very good reason why you dont see people shooting crazy hot rod 1911's with crazy light ammunition, and instead focus on getting the best performance out of the easiest to shoot platform they can.

 

My grandfather once said "you don't see a lot of weird, counterintuitive or revolutionary ideas in this world, because this world is driven by folks who are incredibly smart, and amazingly creative, and they've already explored those ideas, and found them to be lacking. The "layman underdog upstaging professionals" story looks good in the pictures, but never happens in real life." well, it went something like that.

 

If you think you've got it all figured out, congrats, but I'll put my stock in FBI testing, and testing done by professionals like Dr. Roberts and Martin Fackler

Edited by zackmars
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you can have your guts blown out without turning into a "ragdoll".  Anyone who's shot a few dozen animals knows that handgun loads dont perform in flesh and blood like they do in jello. jello is set up to simulate hog muscle. there is almost no muscle on the chest and the only muscle IN the chest is the heart. the lungs are the largest vital organ and they are nothing but air sacks.  The liver and spleen are so fragile that they can be damaged by a bare knuckle punch. you get a lot less expansion and a lot more penetration in animals than you get in jello. there's a lot less liquid in the chest than in jello, and the consistency of jello is not present in vital organs.  The ribs tend to smash shut hp's that dont center the rib, too.

 

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the FBI spent 8 MILLION $ of your tax money (in today's $) trying to hide the fact that they got ONE solid hit on a man with over 50 shots fired at him, when they outnumbered him 8 to one and he only had 1 arm!. So, if you believe a damned thing that the FBI says, you're a fool. also, you aint a cop and if you try to get away with what the cops do (every day) you'll be in prison in very short order. Mirules put 3 rds into Matix's head/neck 4 minutes after Matix had ceased to fight, after Matix was  bled out, helpless and unarmed.  The FBI shot Randy weaver's unarmed wife in the head, as she cradled her child. The FBI burned up a bunch of women and kids at waco. So  you can SHOVE your FBI, boy.

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geez, you need to calm down.

 

pig carcasses have been used for ballistic testing since time immortal, their muscle density is quite similar to ours

 

do you know what jello is? this is jello http://www.kraftrecipes.com/kraft-jello.aspx , This is what people who know what they are doing use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin . You used the term "ragdoll", so dont even try those mental gymnastics. ive shot more than my fair share of animals, enough to know that humans and animals react quite differently to getting shot.

 

when you actually go out and get training, you will know that you will not always have a clear COM shot, hands, arms, thick clothing, drywall, particle board, auto glass... go outside, to a mall, or a movie theater, and see what all someone can hide behind, penetration is important, and if i have to defend myself from someone who takes cover behind a car window, or a cubicle, i'm not going to wait for him to come out of cover, im going toi shoot the threat until it is no longer a threat.

 

people have been killed by single punches, your point? just because something can, doesn't mean it WILL, let alone do it reliably.

 

yes, you do get more penetration in gel, BECAUSE ANIMALS HAVE BONES. This is why the FBI specs 14" of gel penetration. if you read my replies, you would have seen that this was one of the first things i brought up.

 

ribs do not smash close modern HP's but if you have a source that states otherwise, please share.

 

what else the FBI does is irrelevant, they spend inordinate amounts of money on ballistics research, from ballistics gel, to OIS's likewise, what else cops do is also irrelevant. these people are the ones who spend more time shooting people with pistols than any other single group in the US.

 

let me paint a picture, you are building a house, and a architect walks by and tells you that you need a roof, and you yell at him, call him an idiot, and say what he says is worthless because he doesn't like the same music you do.

 

"boy" how cute. insulting people, calling them derogatory names, etc, not conductive to a long stay in any forum that has rules.

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