KCM

One Pistol for the Whole Family? Choose This One!

48 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Besides, this thread is supposed to be about first impressions and product reviews!  I postd my impressions and reviewed the CZ75 P-01 and now I've been moved to a communist country where I have to use a wheat scythe to defend myself. Not!  Can folks in China or N. Korea order a baseball bat on Amazon?  Yikes!At least it's "cowboy simple,"

Edited by KCM
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I thought You would move to one of those South Sea Pacific Islands where they go naked and have no crime..:|

 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, KCM said:

ROFL!  The discussion guy says, "Stop!"

Ya'll just ignore Zach and I.  We're both stubborn.  But, I want him on my team if we are choosing sides for SHTF!

OK, for fun, let's take grandma, with a touch of arthritis and weaker hands, and her 5th grade grand-daughter, to the range and see how long it takes them to load a 5 or six shot revolver and hit a full sized target at 10 to 15 feet.  Granted, some dbl action trigger spings are stiff (for lawyers), so we won't select the .44 magnum.  Maybe a .22 with 9 shots or a .38 Special +P.  There's always the option to teach them to cock the thing with the intuitively obvious hammer as a last resort.  Then, we'll repeat with a semi-auto.

Revolver:  Here we go! Open the cylinder, drop cartriges in there until all the holes are full, close the cylinder, aim, pull!  Pull again!  5 minutes on the range with no class time and we are hitting the target.  Clear it by opening the cylinder and tapping the cylinder rod.  Lay it down.  Whew!

Then, let's repeat the process with any semi-auto.  Never mind that!  To make it fair, we'll limit ourselves (from the miriad of choices) to a striker fired pistol, so no manual safety (optional) or exposed hammer.  Forget a beloved 1911 or clones.  

Pistol:  Here we go!  Load the magazine, rack the slide (can't manage that, grandma? Let me do that for you)), insert the magazine, make sure it "clicked" No "click?"  "Whack it with the palm of your hand, grandma!" Release the slide (remind them about the slide release button) aim, pull!  Pull again!  Keep teaching safety for the rest of the semi-autos out there.  But, we used a Glock.  Just lay it down.  Whew!  Wait!  Clear that thing, first!  Drop the magazine (this button, grandma), rack the slide 3 times.  Well, at least until it locks open.  Whew!  Wait!  What if it didn't lock open?

Can the 5th grader or grandma even succesfully load the magazine to capacity to start with?  They don't have a Maglula or know what it is!

To make it interesting, lets load the guns for them for the second round.  But, put a round in there at random with no primer to simulate a bad primer.  The test is on!  Which will be easier for the student?  Just keep pulling the trigger because you can't remember the tap and rack drill and the wild hog is getting closer, Man!

Now, since grandma is on a strict budget, we'll ask her to cash in her change jar and go shopping for a new revolver.  $356.57 enough?  No problem at Academy!  Maybe, I'll take her to the local gun shop and find a "like new" deal on a Smith and Wesson!  Find a striker fired pistol for $356.57!

Grandma is happy.  She feels safer.  She can remember how to operate the revolver after one training session.  She just needs to practice.  She knows I'll clean it for her with s smile on my face!

I have seen that exact scenario happen.

 

Once they were shown how to best rack a handgun slide, they did far better with the semis.

 

Stop dismissing semis outright. 

 

How do you open a revolver cylinder? By pushing a button

 

How to you kick the rounds out? By shoving a small rod backwards several times

 

How do you load new rounds? By fumbling with 6 or so loose cartridges OR getting a speedloader, and inserting it, then pulling the plug out while keeping the loader in place

Then you close the cylinder.

 

Did you not read the part where i told you how to rack a slide?

Why don't they have an UPLULA? Every gun store I've ever been in has them, or knock offs that work just as well.

 

In addition, you only need to load a mag once, and you can have multiples, and almost every hangun ever comes with at least two.

 

What is with you and bad primers? They happen nowhere near as often as you seem to think. Our rental range will comp a mag if there is a malfunction, and thats because it almost never happens.

 

If you get a click instead if a bang, you should clear the gun, what if it's empty? Are you juat going to keep dry firing your gun?

 

You don't need to use a saftey on a handgun, and you cant get handguns that have true double strike capability.

 

Cost? Police trade ins, or something like a canik.

Done.

 

Just stop. This is getting really old, and you are now just repeating tired old arguments that I've already addressed.

 

Eta, every auto handgun ive had pass trough my hands (that were new) came with a simple mag loader

Edited by zackmars
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Taurus Millenium Pro.  Gen1? Double strike in a semi-auto.  It worked on the second pull for me, several times.  Must have been a bad lot of primers for the manufacturer.  I changed carry ammo.

I used to be a moderator for a Popular FB Night Vision group page.  So, I know how the world turns.  

You missed several points in your intetest if being right, Zackmars.

#1. This is a review/recommendation post.  I offered a review and made a recommendation.  One pistol for a whole family to use.

#2. We both allowed it to go off topic.  My bad.

#3. You will never convince me that I can teach a weaker, less practiced, non regular shooter, that a pistol is easier to learn than a revolver.  There are too many good/not so good variations out there.  That is my educated opinion which many experts agree with.  Many police carry snubby backups because they are needed when things can't be worse.  I would rather my older sister have her revolver than not have a pistol she is intimidated by.  Real world, average people.  Not gun store or range regulars, sir.

BTW, I never said revolvers are better than pistols.  I recommended one to start this post!  I said that I carry same and why!

I do believe that revolvers are easier to teach and intuitive.  That's my opinion.  This is my post!

Now, you can chime back in to be right again or YOU can stop, sir!

PS. I still want you on my team when the SHTF...

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I think there are a few posters here who would share this opinion..

nowyoucanhaveit.jpg

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1 hour ago, KCM said:

Taurus Millenium Pro.  Gen1? Double strike in a semi-auto.  It worked on the second pull for me, several times.  Must have been a bad lot of primers for the manufacturer.  I changed carry ammo.

I used to be a moderator for a Popular FB Night Vision group page.  So, I know how the world turns.  

You missed several points in your intetest if being right, Zackmars.

#1. This is a review/recommendation post.  I offered a review and made a recommendation.  One pistol for a whole family to use.

#2. We both allowed it to go off topic.  My bad.

#3. You will never convince me that I can teach a weaker, less practiced, non regular shooter, that a pistol is easier to learn than a revolver.  There are too many good/not so good variations out there.  That is my educated opinion which many experts agree with.  Many police carry snubby backups because they are needed when things can't be worse.  I would rather my older sister have her revolver than not have a pistol she is intimidated by.  Real world, average people.  Not gun store or range regulars, sir.

BTW, I never said revolvers are better than pistols.  I recommended one to start this post!  I said that I carry same and why!

I do believe that revolvers are easier to teach and intuitive.  That's my opinion.  This is my post!

Now, you can chime back in to be right again or YOU can stop, sir!

PS. I still want you on my team when the SHTF...

Nobody's really concerned about topic creep. It happens, and it can lead to learning. Of course, you ARE the OP...

 

The question wasn't about teaching, them. Instead it was about the absence of teaching

 

Which experts are you referring to?

 

Police carry snubbies because you can get them really small, yet still have most of your ammo, and aren't stuck with something like .32 acp or .380

 

As for pistol variations, you also have lots of bad revolvers, like Taurus.

 

If you can't make an informed decision on autos, chances are you can't do it with a revolver.

 

Having a cylinder doesn't ward off crappy manufacturers.

 

The people who go to the range, or the gun store, are regular people. You can try and joke all you want about tacticool mall ninjas, but they aren't even a precentage of the people who walk in our doors

 

I never said you did say that. But a firearm that requires more of the shooter (this is undebateable) is not good for them.

 

I'm not just commenting only to be right, just giving you the facts I've seen that have been shot down, built, and reinforced by hundreds of new, and experienced shooters, from all walks of life.

 

Not sure where this hostility is coming from, but if you want, i will happily exit this thread.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not hostile.  We're both just stubborn.  And convicted.  That's good.  We can stop now, LOL.  Massad Ayoob from last year:

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2016/11/revolvers-semi-autos-comparison/#revolvers-semi-autos-1

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/10/massad-ayoobs-long-time-favorite-handguns/#maximum-accuracy

BTW, this debate has been raging since semi-autos entered the stage.  We haven't broken any new ground.

Edited by KCM
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Mauser Hsc, granny can get her hands around that.  I had a 1941 eagle over N, (one of the last not Nazi marked), and it was the best shooting pistol I had.  I've never seen one of the later ones with the longer barrel (Interarms did it at first under license in.380) but I'm sure they're fine.  I put a .32 hardball through 9" of fir planks...

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From Kenne:  "Jim Cirillo, lead man of the NYPD Stakeout Unit, (270+ armed robbery interventions in about one year, all in Harlem liquor stores) tried to shoot an armed robber again, (with  14" Ithaca 12 ga and 00 buck) at 10 ft, after the first(center chest hit) let the guy run. Jim was so astonished that he forgot to work the pump for a second.  If it can happen to a veteran of scores of confrontations (and over a dozen actual shootouts) it can happen to you, too (really easily)."

Double barrel shotgun....pull trigger twice.  Simple.

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On 6/13/2017 at 11:31 AM, KCM said:

From Kenne:  "Jim Cirillo, lead man of the NYPD Stakeout Unit, (270+ armed robbery interventions in about one year, all in Harlem liquor stores) tried to shoot an armed robber again, (with  14" Ithaca 12 ga and 00 buck) at 10 ft, after the first(center chest hit) let the guy run. Jim was so astonished that he forgot to work the pump for a second.  If it can happen to a veteran of scores of confrontations (and over a dozen actual shootouts) it can happen to you, too (really easily)."

Double barrel shotgun....pull trigger twice.  Simple.

Sounds like he would have forgotten to pull that second trigger, or the trigger again as well.

 

That doesn't make a case for a particular firearm, what it does make a case for, however, is training.

 

Bullets hardly ever do what we want them to, so you train and practice, so that when that 00 buck, 9mm, 5.56, .50BMG doesn't stop the threat, you don't act all shocked and surprised.

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If you are used to a semi-auto for dove hunting and someone wants you to try out their new pump, you might forget how to rack it for that second shot after a miss.  It's happened to me and I've shot pumps before.  And, i wasn't scared.  Muscle memory.  It's instinctive to pull the trigger, Zachmars.  You know that.  That's how you discover you forgot to rack the pump.  No bang...

I agree that training is huge.  Most don't train enough.  That is why I advocate a simpler manual of arms for single ladies or families looking for self-protection firearms. There's no "Oops" and a second try when the window is smashed in the dark and someone is crawling in.

I asked you before, "Have you have ever had a loaded gun aimed at you?"  I have.  It changes your life.

I'm not debating you just to win an argument.  Someone's life could be at stake if they make the wrong decision about any of this.  Of course, their life could be at stake for not arming themselves and training their family often on what to do in a home invasion.  Decisions.  Safety first.  Practice, practice.  Pray it doesn't happen.

If the SHTF, I'll start carryng a back-up.  It will be a revolver.  Shotgun near the door.  Double 20 gauge.  Other shotgun for me: Winchester 97 pump, 12 ga.  Carry sidearm: CZ 75.  My wife is former law enforcement.  Her choice for vehicle?  Ruger SP101 .357 revolver.  We have two.  My choice for vehicle?  Semi-auto.  Her choice for carry?  Berretta PX4 Storm in .40 S&W.  She can handle it.  I prefer a 9mm or a .45.  Decisions based on differing life experience.  For ranch carry, wild hogs are the biggest menace.  I open carry a Smith and Wesson Model 13 or a 1911 .45ACP.  My wife put 4 quick rounds of .45 ACP into a 150 lb. boar before it "stayed down."  I emptied a 5 shot Ruger SP101 with .38 +P loaded at a wouded pig that charged me when we tracked it for the meat.  I connected 3 of 5 shots.  It was dark and Susan was shining a flashlight.  Very difficult.  I can't imagine trying a tap, rack drill in the dark with that pig coming at me.  Or forgetting the manual safety was on. Enough to convince me that you are right.  Things don't go according to plan.

If I were forced to choose only one side arm and one long arm for all around use (hunting or patrolling) it would be very hard to decide.  But, I would select my lever action rifle in .357 Magnum and the Smith and Wesson 6 shot Model 13 (.357).  Good sight radius.  Power.  One ammo to maintain.   Don't forget to rack that Model 92 hard!  No soft pedal!

Or, my M1 Carbine and the CZ 75.  Man!  Glad I don't have to choose!  

Here's pictures of an average wild pig's weapons.  I didn't have time to pee my pants!  Just time to draw and shoot.

IMG_1217.JPG

IMG_1218.JPG

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3 hours ago, KCM said:

If you are used to a semi-auto for dove hunting and someone wants you to try out their new pump, you might forget how to rack it for that second shot after a miss.  It's happened to me and I've shot pumps before.  And, i wasn't scared.  Muscle memory.  It's instinctive to pull the trigger, Zachmars.  You know that.  That's how you discover you forgot to rack the pump.  No bang...

I agree that training is huge.  Most don't train enough.  That is why I advocate a simpler manual of arms for single ladies or families looking for self-protection firearms. There's no "Oops" and a second try when the window is smashed in the dark and someone is crawling in.

I asked you before, "Have you have ever had a loaded gun aimed at you?"  I have.  It changes your life.

I'm not debating you just to win an argument.  Someone's life could be at stake if they make the wrong decision about any of this.  Of course, their life could be at stake for not arming themselves and training their family often on what to do in a home invasion.  Decisions.  Safety first.  Practice, practice.  Pray it doesn't happen.

If the SHTF, I'll start carryng a back-up.  It will be a revolver.  Shotgun near the door.  Double 20 gauge.  Other shotgun for me: Winchester 97 pump, 12 ga.  Carry sidearm: CZ 75.  My wife is former law enforcement.  Her choice for vehicle?  Ruger SP101 .357 revolver.  We have two.  My choice for vehicle?  Semi-auto.  Her choice for carry?  Berretta PX4 Storm in .40 S&W.  She can handle it.  I prefer a 9mm or a .45.  Decisions based on differing life experience.  For ranch carry, wild hogs are the biggest menace.  I open carry a Smith and Wesson Model 13 or a 1911 .45ACP.  My wife put 4 quick rounds of .45 ACP into a 150 lb. boar before it "stayed down."  I emptied a 5 shot Ruger SP101 with .38 +P loaded at a wouded pig that charged me when we tracked it for the meat.  I connected 3 of 5 shots.  It was dark and Susan was shining a flashlight.  Very difficult.  I can't imagine trying a tap, rack drill in the dark with that pig coming at me.  Or forgetting the manual safety was on. Enough to convince me that you are right.  Things don't go according to plan.

If I were forced to choose only one side arm and one long arm for all around use (hunting or patrolling) it would be very hard to decide.  But, I would select my lever action rifle in .357 Magnum and the Smith and Wesson 6 shot Model 13 (.357).  Good sight radius.  Power.  One ammo to maintain.   Don't forget to rack that Model 92 hard!  No soft pedal!

Or, my M1 Carbine and the CZ 75.  Man!  Glad I don't have to choose!  

Here's pictures of an average wild pig's weapons.  I didn't have time to pee my pants!  Just time to draw and shoot.

IMG_1217.JPG

IMG_1218.JPG

Hunting is not the same as shooting a guy.

 

You can say how fine auto loaders and double barrels are just because all you need to do is pull the trigger, but that doesn't do you any good when you are shocked to the point you can't move.

 

Yes, i have had loaded guns pointed at me, once a guy did it in anger. I've also pointed guns at people. Not sure what this has to do with anything. Hunting doesn't have anything to do with this either

 

So tell me, if you are shocked to the point you are unable to do anything? Are you really going to know "oh boy, better pull that trigger again!"? Extremely doubtful.

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A pig or a bad guy charging from 30 ft to 10 feet from you is stress.  At that point, the simpler the better.  If you are too stressed to react, that is really bad. If you react and things don't work, that is really bad. The revolver worked, as advertised.  I would not have had time to clear a stovepipe or FTF.  That is what  it has to do with it.  It's about defending with the right weapon (for you) under stress.  My advice is: "Keep it simple" when bad guys are hunting you or you are hunting pigs.

Maybe I should have just used a baseball bat.  Pigs don't have guns, but some bad guys do.  These videos remind me of how fast it happens.  Bad guy or pig.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/10-wild-boar-attacks-video/

Yes, a semi-auto would be better in all these cases.  No bolt actions, no pumps.  Maybe time for one or two shots.  Many had no time for even one shot.

I think Dan, you, or Kenne said it's best to avoid trouble whenever possible.

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1 hour ago, KCM said:

A pig or a bad guy charging from 30 ft to 10 feet from you is stress.  At that point, the simpler the better.  If you are too stressed to react, that is really bad. If you react and things don't work, that is really bad. The revolver worked, as advertised.  I would not have had time to clear a stovepipe or FTF.  That is what  it has to do with it.  It's about defending with the right weapon (for you) under stress.  My advice is: "Keep it simple" when bad guys are hunting you or you are hunting pigs.

Maybe I should have just used a baseball bat.  Pigs don't have guns, but some bad guys do.  These videos remind me of how fast it happens.  Bad guy or pig.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/10-wild-boar-attacks-video/

Yes, a semi-auto would be better in all these cases.  No bolt actions, no pumps.  Maybe time for one or two shots.  Many had no time for even one shot.

I think Dan, you, or Kenne said it's best to avoid trouble whenever possible.

Semis are far more reliable than you make them out to be, if they were even half as bad as you make them out to be, nobody'd use them.

 

Are we going to keep going around in circles on this? You can keep it simple as you want, but that simplicity comes with a price, and that price is how much manipulation you have to perform, often during reloads. And if you need to do a reload under stress, a simple mag instert beats the ever loving piss out of a speed loader, or loose cartridges. It might be more mechanically complex, but the human element is far more likely to fail, vs the mechanical.

 

I've been charged by hogs, I've been armed with pump guns and auto loaders, it still doesn't make the argument you seem to think it does.

 

A "simple" firearm is never a replacement for training.

 

Never in a million years. Period.

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I never said that a simple firearm is a replacement for training or that revolvers are superior to a semi-auto.  I carry a semi..  Specifcally, revolvers and double shotguns may be easier to train on and may be easier for "not-so-proficient" or practiced users.  They are more intuitve.  You can look at them and fgure them out.  When we are in a bind, this can be an advantage.  You and I are more "seasoned"  and you have trained lots of people.  Good!

You missed or don't agree with my point(s).  OK.  My points are valid.  Training someone who doesn't shoot often to defend their home may require different considerations/options for age, ablity, etcetera.

BTW, this was my post about a pistol recommendation for a whole family.  If it were your post, I would have stopped commenting long ago.

Kim

 

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3 hours ago, KCM said:

I never said that a simple firearm is a replacement for training or that revolvers are superior to a semi-auto.  I carry a semi..  Specifcally, revolvers and double shotguns may be easier to train on and may be easier for "not-so-proficient" or practiced users.  They are more intuitve.  You can look at them and fgure them out.  When we are in a bind, this can be an advantage.  You and I are more "seasoned"  and you have trained lots of people.  Good!

You missed or don't agree with my point(s).  OK.  My points are valid.  Training someone who doesn't shoot often to defend their home may require different considerations/options for age, ablity, etcetera.

BTW, this was my post about a pistol recommendation for a whole family.  If it were your post, I would have stopped commenting long ago.

Kim

 

You may not have said it specifically, but you've made several comments that allude to this.

 

They aren't easier to train on, requiring more work of a shooter. Same goes for pump guns.

 

It really doesn't matter what you carry. 

 

And revolvers are not any more intuitive than any other firearm, reloads are where the semi excels over a revolver

 

Please for the sake of this conversation, stop repeating the same arguments. Many people struggle with revolvers, the cylinder latch and ejector rod messes up tons of people, i addressed this several comments ago. Compare this with an auto loader, whick ejects empties automatically. Do you have any actual data saying revolvers are more intuitive? What is your sample size? 2, 10, 20 shooters?

 

I didn't miss any points, and I'm not dissagreeing with the ones I'm disagreeing with out of spite, or to be a contrarian, but because they don't hold up to scrutiny or real world data.

 

Ive said this before, not all guns are fit for all people, but to plainly say things like "hey look at Jim Cirillo, he didn't pump his shotgun" as proof that things like double barrels are just plain superior, is a logical fallacy.

 

I'm breaking contact here. You are just repeating the same arguments posted earlier, and when i bite, you just run back to "hey i carry an auto loader" and "this thread is about a family pistol"

 

Peace.

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Zackmars,

Whew!   And you got the last word.  We all learned something, albiet a bit embarassing.  That's growth and wisdom.  

Can I delete my own post?  Or, do I ask Moderators or Admins to delete a post?  If I can delete this post, I would start over and post the same product review.   It won't end up in a "discussion" this time.  Maybe you could post a review of another brand.

KCM

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I dont particularly care about getting in the last word... But thats in the past.

 

I don't know if you can self delete posts or not, are you sure you'd want ? Some good info got hashed out here...

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17 hours ago, zackmars said:

I don't know if you can self delete posts or not, are you sure you'd want ? Some good info got hashed out here...

Doesn't look like posters can delete once the editing time has passed.  Not like Facebook, anway, LOL.  Yes, some good info.  The thread is about product reviews.  That's why was interested in starting over.  No feelings hurt.

Kim

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On 6/12/2017 at 7:54 PM, Dan Seven said:

I think there are a few posters here who would share this opinion..

nowyoucanhaveit.jpg

ROFL!  And a great profile pic!

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Well considering the thread is titled "one pistol for the whole family..."

Yes that .357, especially with 'hot loads', might be a bit much for little Suzie, and might not fit in her lunchbox for school..

 

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33 minutes ago, Dan Seven said:

Well considering the thread is titled "one pistol for the whole family..."

Yes that .357, especially with 'hot loads', might be a bit much for little Suzie, and might not fit in her lunchbox for school..

 

ROFL!!!  The first version (3rd line) was even better!   How do you spell "Touche?"

I don't think the .357 Kimber would be much fun to practice with....

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