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Does anyone else carry multiple Arms or Defense Devices daily? The Second Amendment clearly states the right to keep and bear Arms. Yet most only think modern firearms. While it may not matter much in Shtf or Wrol, it does matter now. In a crazy and dangerous world that we live in,  and with the court system guilty of corruption, Injustice and Avarice, we not only have to peacefully assert our rights but also keep in mind that not every conflict situation dictates deadly force and one should have non lethal or reasonable force options , be it taser, baton, defense spray or martial arts.

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Dan Seven    1,302

I don't bother anymore..too old to care..i am not worth it anyway.

So that shit is off my mind, and guess what ?  I can still run across the street through a break in traffic, and you might be surprised that you likely won't get shot or chased because you have not given an attacker a chance to figure out if you have anything of value, and secondly, whoever is chasing someone else gains the optics of being the instant perpetrator..Standing your ground is conceding to a fight.

Street Crimes are largely crimes of opportunity, and running someone down over 8 city blocks is hardly seen as an opportunity to someone part wasted anyway.

So which is better..waking up handcuffed to a hospital bed after surgery to remove 2 bullets with a smashed eye socket, only to learn you just killed a 15 year old homeless kid with mental problems off his meds...or breathing easy after a hard run knowing you won't be missing a well deserved cold beer later..with a story to tell..?  Pick one.

All i can add is to learn to dial 911 on the run to make it more effective. Highly underrated..

cheers

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zackmars    508
7 minutes ago, traditionalhunter88 said:

So as of now, noone carries all around defenses. Only reply I've seen that stayed on topic is a secondary lethal weapon or a utility tool.

At some point you have to step back and ask if carrying mace, a taser, on top of what you might normally carry is actually useful?

 

Im not a cop, i am not walking around, actively pursuing criminals, i carry what i do to protect me, and my family, and they don't get pulled unless there is a deadly threat. 

 

Anything less, gets delt with by de-escalation, or de-assing the area

 

Avoiding a fight is #1. The easiest way to loose a fight, is to look for one.

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The mindset of I'm not a cop, etc doesn't matter. If you live In an open carry state, chances are non lethal are legal and very useful. I used non lethal against a knife wielding alcoholic and they were found guilty. Furthermore, Defense of Property requires non lethal. By law.

 

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zackmars    508
2 minutes ago, traditionalhunter88 said:

The mindset of I'm not a cop, etc doesn't matter. If you live In an open carry state, chances are non lethal are legal and very useful. I used non lethal against a knife wielding alcoholic and they were found guilty. Furthermore, Defense of Property requires non lethal. By law.

 

"Furthermore, Defense of Property requires non lethal. By law."

 

Not by federal law. Perfectly legal in Texas to use lethal force to protect property.

 

I'm not going to put myself at risk trying to stop an armed drunk, call the police, and GTFO

 

my goal is not to end up in the news, be it because i zapped a drunk, or because i pissed him off, and he gutted me.

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KCM    59

"Avoiding a fight is #1. The easiest way to loose a fight, is to look for one."

Good advice.

I always have a knife.  I took martial arts years ago. It builds "reading" an aggressor and muscle memory for instinctive reaction.  But, the best defense is situational awareness.  Look around.  Head on a swivel.

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Dan Seven    1,302
3 hours ago, traditionalhunter88 said:

So as of now, no one carries all around defenses. Only reply I've seen that stayed on topic is a secondary lethal weapon or a utility tool.

  I guess i am getting old, but I don't know of anything offhand i can carry with me to fix the stupid of getting into a fight.

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zackmars    508
49 minutes ago, Dan Seven said:

     Defense   definition   The action of defending from or resisting attack..  

Like I said, i carry my 2 legs in action of both defending from and resisting attack.

Somehow i don't think You wanna hear about anything other than meeting force with force, and as I mentioned, do not expect it to all go your way when that happens. It never does.

That person is not who You thought, they don't do what You expect, they may not be acting alone, witnesses may say they saw something else, they could be 'connected', they could outspend you in a court of law, they could get in a lucky shot, you could get a bad whack and remember nothing, they could have friends that will hunt your loved ones down, they could be related to someone you know. On and on.

Almost like reality is relative and nothing happens here in a vacuum.

Honestly, not knowing who a person is dancing with or what the dance is and then coming at this with a vengeance like there is something One can carry to prevent their own stupidity for getting involved in the first place is not an effective approach.

In civil society resorting to violence as a defense is considered losing conscious control, (fear or terror) and every further act of violence is measured by the intent and purpose for allowing that mounting unconsciousness even if it results in death of another. It will not be measured by Us, but by a judge and or jury. Where's our control then?  If we had it all along it is called Murder.

I am with You and all for My Rights. I have got nothing to prove in the defense of those rights and were I to play with the edges would have a lot of money for a very good lawyer before starting.

My opinion.

I'm not sure where you get the whole "In civil society resorting to violence as a defense is considered losing conscious control" bit from, as its demonstrably false.

 

Lots of people kill in self defense, and never step foot in a courtroom.

 

Living your life as if defending yourself will end badly is a terrible way to go. No matter what your views, self defense, even if it ends in a death, is not murder.

Truth sucks, but not all people are equal. It's not some stupid concept based on skin color, income, religion, or sexual orientation, but on actions and deeds. Bad people are bad people because they do bad things

 

Can't always run from a fight, nor can we de-escalate a situation. The only choice you may have is, a, be a victim, or b, fight back.

 

You post a lot about fear mongering, yet look at what you just posted! 

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Dan Seven    1,302

@zackmars

I understand..I will always be that person that will be trying to insist that everyone steer clear from violence.

Things go out of control real quick in violent situations, and some folks are never the same after that whether they are on the 'winning side' or the 'losing side', whether they are the 'good guy' or the 'bad guy'.

In the time i checked in on this thread 2 US Vets just ended their lives. 22 every day one every 65 minutes on average.

You can bet they never backed down, or became a 'victim'.  That is never what i was trying to say here.

10 hours ago, zackmars said:

Living your life as if defending yourself will end badly is a terrible way to go. No matter what your views, self defense, even if it ends in a death, is not murder.

Truth sucks, but not all people are equal. It's not some stupid concept based on skin color, income, religion, or sexual orientation, but on actions and deeds. Bad people are bad people because they do bad things

These Vets never lived their life like defending themselves or even their Country would end badly. Yet 2 just did, and 20 more will by this time tomorrow..just in the US.

Not all people are created equal, true. I am not that guy that would volunteer for the battlefield, nor would be the one pulling the trigger. Neither would my Doctor or my Priest. I have succeeded in avoiding violence because i know what it does to people. i know full well it is not for me, no matter what the consequences, avoidable or not. I am no that guy.

What i have not said is that i have been a counselor since 1989 and specialized in trauma and grief counselling since 2007.

I have worked with Vets (2 weeks ago tomorrow last one) and very heavily traumatized people.

It is very difficult to lose clients, but i have. I do my best but i can't win em all. I am hoping that i can gain an appreciation here as to why i am so uncompromising about demanding that people examine themselves heavily before submitting to decision that would lead them into a place where i, nor anyone else can walk them out of.

It is simply not survivable for everyone, even some war heroes. These guys made life and death decisions every day. Yet they must respect their own deal, and if something inside says stop and they do not..well, there is suddenly a breaking point and they do not always come back from that..they are changed from the trauma, sometimes for the rest of their lives.

So, Yes..some people kill in self defense and due process of law does not see the necessity of being accorded and they never see the inside of the courtroom. It is my opinion from what i have seen that no one get's off scott free. Even in accidents i have worked with clients with little or no guarantee of mental survival or emotional survival.

It does not matter to me whether they are good guys or bad guys. It might surprise You to know that 34% of Policemen in the USA are in regular psychotherapy, compared to 34% of convicted felons. That tells me everything I need to know.

This really is about Survival. I will make it through my job and i am very good at it.

By the time it get's to me, there is no Peace, and I cannot make it for them.

more heavy discussion..we are good at getting this..

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Zack, exactly! You cannot always avoid a conflict nor always talk out of it. The civil society crap is one of the problems that gives birth to rights violations, sensitized idiots and fear mongers. An armed, realistic society is better. While you don't need the whole rig, having at least one non lethal option is best. Defense spray works by affecting sight and breathing. You all talk about avoiding a conflict, spray is giving that option, once the attacker is blinded, you can get away. Take away attackers sense of sight and you can move into disarm or escape. Only weighs ounces.                                                                              I am far from a fear monger, I am a realist. I refuse to be a victim. I've dealt with addicts, punks and opportunistic thieves. Sadly, I did not invest in security cameras last year when I was doing some camping and hunting. I've had a target, tent, arrows, a bike and 2600 dollars worth of other gear stolen due to storms, flash floods and lack of a guarded campsite. None were recovered after the reports of misdemeanor and felony larceny. I learned to not camp long without another person standing guard that I can trust. Cannot afford a vehicle for a few years at least.

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zackmars    508
9 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

@zackmars

I understand..I will always be that person that will be trying to insist that everyone steer clear from violence.

Things go out of control real quick in violent situations, and some folks are never the same after that whether they are on the 'winning side' or the 'losing side', whether they are the 'good guy' or the 'bad guy'.

In the time i checked in on this thread 2 US Vets just ended their lives. 22 every day one every 65 minutes on average.

You can bet they never backed down, or became a 'victim'.  That is never what i was trying to say here.

These Vets never lived their life like defending themselves or even their Country would end badly. Yet 2 just did, and 20 more will by this time tomorrow..just in the US.

Not all people are created equal, true. I am not that guy that would volunteer for the battlefield, nor would be the one pulling the trigger. Neither would my Doctor or my Priest. I have succeeded in avoiding violence because i know what it does to people. i know full well it is not for me, no matter what the consequences, avoidable or not. I am no that guy.

What i have not said is that i have been a counselor since 1989 and specialized in trauma and grief counselling since 2007.

I have worked with Vets (2 weeks ago tomorrow last one) and very heavily traumatized people.

It is very difficult to lose clients, but i have. I do my best but i can't win em all. I am hoping that i can gain an appreciation here as to why i am so uncompromising about demanding that people examine themselves heavily before submitting to decision that would lead them into a place where i, nor anyone else can walk them out of.

It is simply not survivable for everyone, even some war heroes. These guys made life and death decisions every day. Yet they must respect their own deal, and if something inside says stop and they do not..well, there is suddenly a breaking point and they do not always come back from that..they are changed from the trauma, sometimes for the rest of their lives.

So, Yes..some people kill in self defense and due process of law does not see the necessity of being accorded and they never see the inside of the courtroom. It is my opinion from what i have seen that no one get's off scott free. Even in accidents i have worked with clients with little or no guarantee of mental survival or emotional survival.

It does not matter to me whether they are good guys or bad guys. It might surprise You to know that 34% of Policemen in the USA are in regular psychotherapy, compared to 34% of convicted felons. That tells me everything I need to know.

This really is about Survival. I will make it through my job and i am very good at it.

By the time it get's to me, there is no Peace, and I cannot make it for them.

more heavy discussion..we are good at getting this..

Vets see al lot more than the civilian does, they are under far different circumstances than someone who shoots or stabs someone defensively.

 

The same goes for cops.

 

A decision that would lead them to a place they cant walk out of? Like getting killed or raped?

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Dan Seven    1,302
2 hours ago, zackmars said:

Vets see al lot more than the civilian does, they are under far different circumstances than someone who shoots or stabs someone defensively.

The same goes for cops.

A decision that would lead them to a place they cant walk out of? Like getting killed or raped?

We are all going to die, and that choice was made as soon as we walked onto this planet. There is no walking out of that.

Within that framework, we must live, live free and strong and avoid suffering for it's own sake which redeems nothing.

Terrible things happen to people in and out of war zones. Some are avoidable, some not. It is way beyond my pay grade to tell anyone that a traumatic experience is something that was going to happen to them because it was unavoidable.

That is their deal to live with. No idea why. It is my job to crawl into the pit with them, and be with them for as long as it takes for us to step out and continue walking. Sometimes i am successful in doing so, sometimes not.

Violence is not something to be 'entertained'. What i do in dealing with the aftermath is not 'entertaining'. Picking up a Beretta and putting it to one's head to end it all is not the same as picking up a Playstation paddle and dying 10 times in a first person shooter game that afternoon.

People do not kill themselves in this way because of what happened to them. People kill themselves because of what is still happening to them. It is not about remembering a violent past event/s anymore it is about re-experiencing trauma that they could never make a place to live with in the first place.

I am all about backing people up and making sure that there is no first place to begin with. Yes an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But sometimes 145 grains means a lifetime with no cure. This is not for everybody.

What can't be helped can't be helped. If we can't live with it, exactly who do we expect is going to make it that we can?

Tough choices. By the time i get involved whoever was to blame does not matter anymore, it is just about surviving our choices, or the fact that we did not have one in the first place.

So, by all means, carry the pepper spray, the buck knife. I am all for it. If it contains a 'situation' great, if it blows it up to where there is no putting oneself or someone else back together..that is when i get involved. At that point who was right or wrong has no bearing on my efforts.

Yet all these Playstation heroes are still out there, pretending there is no coming apart...like there is some 'medicine' or 'fix' they can carry on their right hip that can prevent that from happening.

I am here to tell people from painful experience that there isn't one. 

 

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An attack is established on a few concepts. Ability, opportunity, capability. An open carrier, who is trained to be alert and aware of surroundings, maintaining situational awareness is less likely to become a victim than any number of unarmed, unprepared individuals that I've seen. I've had only one real threat and that was 12 25 15, since I have open carried starting in May 12th 2015. Not including the animal encounters and three attempted assaults that were diffused with verbal warnings. Two were punks that couldn't take no as an answer when they wanted a cigarette from me that I worked for and they were strangers.

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Somehow, I get the feeling you are in Canada, Dan and or are prematurely judging me. I am not dangerous or anything. It's a matter of reactive aggression if a situation enters a level 3 or level 4 conflict. It's about survival and defense. Violence is an act criminals perform. Defense is my job. Of myself, my property, my kitten and of others I care about. Calling 911 does not really do anything. Police respond, they don't prevent anything. Very seldomly are the nearby to stop a theft, rape, attack, etc. That's why most have the duty and responsibility to defend themselves, etc. Take Walmart for example. Who is in charge with the duty to prevent thefts? It's the Asset Protection officer or loss prevention officer. 

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Dan Seven    1,302

@traditionalhunter88

Yes i am in Canada. A big chunk of my professional life is about what comes out of the opposite end of the system when it is done with victims of violence. That is why i am so keen on the fact that it does not happen in the first place.

In Canada when dealing with ultra-violence, (not saying it resulted in a crime), we still believe that is a f'd up place to have to go in your head and at some level a person has to be 'out of it'. We begin to look at a variety of factors that explain this situation and invariably learn that a lot of f'd up happened to someone long before they got there.

It is still not NORMAL to go there here. For whatever reason a person goes there..they need help.

Perhaps that is why you picked up on the fact that i am not from the USA where the culture of weaponized violence is so out of control that it is now normal to discuss tactical responses to violent situations with your 6 year old kid at the dinner table.

Here that is still a f'd up thing to do. 

Yet what are the odds ?  the chances that the average person in the USA will be confronted with armed violence within the next year is about one chance in 300. In Canada one chance in about 800. 

My question to You is what kind of effort are You placing into making those odds worse that could be placed into helping those odds. Here the chances are so small we don't worry about it. In the USA the chances are still very small (Can't argue with the numbers), yet the people are obsessed with escalating the probabilities with more armaments of all shapes and sizes.

Forgot the difference between Scaring and Caring. Hint: One is heartless.

Considering the odds, Americans are doing little more than investing in their own paranoia, and if you want to quote all the examples of victimy to me i will point out the numbers don't lie and ask you when the last time you ended up either in jail or in the hospital due to armed conflict. The numbers don't lie..people do..

So nothing personal. I expect that You will do your part in keeping it real and stop making up a world so dangerous that you cannot get away from it. As i have been saying. People got legs. In a violent neighborhood ?   Walk out. Unless that is what You want, then by all means stay. If You don't have it in for yourself in a place like that, then odds are somebody else does.

 

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zackmars    508
2 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

We are all going to die, and that choice was made as soon as we walked onto this planet. There is no walking out of that.

Within that framework, we must live, live free and strong and avoid suffering for it's own sake which redeems nothing.

Terrible things happen to people in and out of war zones. Some are avoidable, some not. It is way beyond my pay grade to tell anyone that a traumatic experience is something that was going to happen to them because it was unavoidable.

That is their deal to live with. No idea why. It is my job to crawl into the pit with them, and be with them for as long as it takes for us to step out and continue walking. Sometimes i am successful in doing so, sometimes not.

Violence is not something to be 'entertained'. What i do in dealing with the aftermath is not 'entertaining'. Picking up a Beretta and putting it to one's head to end it all is not the same as picking up a Playstation paddle and dying 10 times in a first person shooter game that afternoon.

People do not kill themselves in this way because of what happened to them. People kill themselves because of what is still happening to them. It is not about remembering a violent past event/s anymore it is about re-experiencing trauma that they could never make a place to live with in the first place.

I am all about backing people up and making sure that there is no first place to begin with. Yes an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But sometimes 145 grains means a lifetime with no cure. This is not for everybody.

What can't be helped can't be helped. If we can't live with it, exactly who do we expect is going to make it that we can?

Tough choices. By the time i get involved whoever was to blame does not matter anymore, it is just about surviving our choices, or the fact that we did not have one in the first place.

So, by all means, carry the pepper spray, the buck knife. I am all for it. If it contains a 'situation' great, if it blows it up to where there is no putting oneself or someone else back together..that is when i get involved. At that point who was right or wrong has no bearing on my efforts.

Yet all these Playstation heroes are still out there, pretending there is no coming apart...like there is some 'medicine' or 'fix' they can carry on their right hip that can prevent that from happening.

I am here to tell people from painful experience that there isn't one. 

 

We are all going to die, but we often get to choose the terms. 

 

Running around like a headless chicken, screaming that daring to defend one's self will never end favorably for the defender because he might beat you, or might have a totally awesome lawyer is stupid, and is the very definition of fear mongering, the thing you have posted AGAINST.

 

We must live free and strong, when that involves violence? Do we need to turn to slavery and weakness? According to you, yes.

 

Nobody said that violence is entertaining, but in the same vein, if you want to live strong and free, you will need to entertain the thought. Shit sucks, but that's what you trade for freedom.

 

What you do seems to have tainted your views to the point you can't see anything else, this is also shown by our previous conversations. The way you see the world isn't the way it all works. Vets, cops, criminals see, and do lots of things, things most people can never even imagine, and since the human brain is a funny thing, saying things like "IF YOU KILL SOMEONE THEY WILL HUNT YOU DOWN, SUE YOU, AND YOU'LL SHOOT YOURSELF" is full on weapons grade stupid.

 

We cant live with it? Says who? You? Lots of people live with it. And again, vets, cops, and crims are not everyday people

 

Just freaking stop it already. It sounds like you need a looooonnngggg vacation from your job, holy crap.

Edited by zackmars
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Thomas    910
1 hour ago, Dan Seven said:

@traditionalhunter88

Yes i am in Canada. A big chunk of my professional life is about what comes out of the opposite end of the system when it is done with victims of violence. That is why i am so keen on the fact that it does not happen in the first place.

In Canada when dealing with ultra-violence, (not saying it resulted in a crime), we still believe that is a f'd up place to have to go in your head and at some level a person has to be 'out of it'. We begin to look at a variety of factors that explain this situation and invariably learn that a lot of f'd up happened to someone long before they got there.

It is still not NORMAL to go there here. For whatever reason a person goes there..they need help.

Perhaps that is why you picked up on the fact that i am not from the USA where the culture of weaponized violence is so out of control that it is now normal to discuss tactical responses to violent situations with your 6 year old kid at the dinner table.

Here that is still a f'd up thing to do. 

Yet what are the odds ?  the chances that the average person in the USA will be confronted with armed violence within the next year is about one chance in 300. In Canada one chance in about 800. 

My question to You is what kind of effort are You placing into making those odds worse that could be placed into helping those odds. Here the chances are so small we don't worry about it. In the USA the chances are still very small (Can't argue with the numbers), yet the people are obsessed with escalating the probabilities with more armaments of all shapes and sizes.

Forgot the difference between Scaring and Caring. Hint: One is heartless.

Considering the odds, Americans are doing little more than investing in their own paranoia, and if you want to quote all the examples of victimy to me i will point out the numbers don't lie and ask you when the last time you ended up either in jail or in the hospital due to armed conflict. The numbers don't lie..people do..

So nothing personal. I expect that You will do your part in keeping it real and stop making up a world so dangerous that you cannot get away from it. As i have been saying. People got legs. In a violent neighborhood ?   Walk out. Unless that is what You want, then by all means stay. If You don't have it in for yourself in a place like that, then odds are somebody else does.

 

 

3 minutes ago, zackmars said:

We are all going to die, but we often get to choose the terms. 

 

Running around like a headless chicken, screaming that daring to defend one's self will never end favorably for the defender because he might beat you, or might have a totally awesome lawyer is stupid, and is the very definition of fear mongering, the thing you have posted AGAINST.

 

We must live free and strong, when that involves violence? Do we need to turn to slavery and weakness? According to you, yes.

 

Nobody said that violence is entertaining, but in the same vein, if you want to live strong and free, you will need to entertain the thought. Shit sucks, but that's what you trade for freedom.

 

What you do seems to have tainted your views to the point you can't see anything else, this is also shown by our previous conversations. The way you see the world isn't the way it all works. Vets, cops, criminals see, and do lots of things, things most people can never even imagine, and since the human brain is a funny thing, saying things like "IF YOU KILL SOMEONE THEY WILL HUNT YOU DOWN, SUE YOU, AND YOU'LL SHOOT YOURSELF" is full on weapons grade stupid.

 

We cant live with it? Says who? You? Lots of people live with it. And again, vets, cops, and crims are not everyday people

 

Just freaking stop it already. It sounds like you need a looooonnngggg vacation from your job, holy crap.

This is particularly interesting to me as I find myself more in agreement with Zack's mindset but as a Brit who has never heard a gun shot fired in anger, I completely understand Dan's perspective.

In fact, I started writing an article for MTJS about this exact topic earlier this morning to mull over these complex issues on killing and its associated emotional cost. 

 

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Dan Seven    1,302
4 hours ago, Thomas said:

 

This is particularly interesting to me as I find myself more in agreement with Zack's mindset but as a Brit who has never heard a gun shot fired in anger, I completely understand Dan's perspective.

In fact, I started writing an article for MTJS about this exact topic earlier this morning to mull over these complex issues on killing and its associated emotional cost. 

 

Probably a timely article Thomas..

Well, Zackmars has very valid points, and i respect them. Zackmars is not going to roll over in a confrontation that threatens his own livilihood or that of his loved ones. That means a calculation has already occurred as to what he is willing to live with in an effort to make safe what he cannot live without. And i agree as well in that i am not one to say he cannot live happily ever after.

(Sorry for speaking like you are a 3rd person [email protected] trying to context)

More power to You.

Here is where I am not sure You are following me.

 In the USA Cops, prison guards, victims of armed violence and perpetrators of armed violence including rape, soldiers traumatized by violence make up 35% of the adult  population.

4 hours ago, Thomas said:

And again, vets, cops, and crims are not everyday people

Sorry @zackmars but these are everyday people man. Everyday 35% of the adult American population dealing with trauma.

For some it is a not a big issue. For many, they won't make it through today.

24% of adult Americans have prescriptions for pain medication and  35% of American adults drink alcohol regularly to regulate pain. Over 42% of Americans living with serious trauma do not have enough access or money to obtain enough mental health or trauma support resources

@Zackmars..I do not need a vacation from my job. I need a vacation from people who do not get that this has become such a huge issue in your society that you would see over a third of your population as not everyday people and that is ok. It is not ok. Not even close. It is what is pulling America down and will be overlooked at the risk of crushing everyday people under the weight of  their own desperation.

Sure..we do whatever we can to save ourselves, including dishing out more pain. 

My question is..Where does that get everybody else ?

 

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Rick    43

@Dan Seven I think we're in accord; while being alert to potential threats it's important to remain compassionate and open-minded.  I follow the Dali Lama on twitter and he gives me an inspirational message now and then that keeps me from getting in trouble.  Of course, there's a lot more to life than making the right choices.....  Examples of confrontation going wrong are well documented, results can be catastrophic.

If you have to beat someone with a club and don't want to kill them and have time to aim, don't hit them in the head, chop down on their shoulder blades.  Not many guys can get up and fight with a broken shoulder blade.  I have a club that fits on the steering wheel to deter thieves - never use it but it sits between the seats of the van within reach.  The police even gave them away to anyone who would line up for them.

Edited by Rick

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zackmars    508
8 hours ago, Dan Seven said:

Probably a timely article Thomas..

Well, Zackmars has very valid points, and i respect them. Zackmars is not going to roll over in a confrontation that threatens his own livilihood or that of his loved ones. That means a calculation has already occurred as to what he is willing to live with in an effort to make safe what he cannot live without. And i agree as well in that i am not one to say he cannot live happily ever after.

(Sorry for speaking like you are a 3rd person [email protected] trying to context)

More power to You.

Here is where I am not sure You are following me.

 In the USA Cops, prison guards, victims of armed violence and perpetrators of armed violence including rape, soldiers traumatized by violence make up 35% of the adult  population.

Sorry @zackmars but these are everyday people man. Everyday 35% of the adult American population dealing with trauma.

For some it is a not a big issue. For many, they won't make it through today.

24% of adult Americans have prescriptions for pain medication and  35% of American adults drink alcohol regularly to regulate pain. Over 42% of Americans living with serious trauma do not have enough access or money to obtain enough mental health or trauma support resources

@Zackmars..I do not need a vacation from my job. I need a vacation from people who do not get that this has become such a huge issue in your society that you would see over a third of your population as not everyday people and that is ok. It is not ok. Not even close. It is what is pulling America down and will be overlooked at the risk of crushing everyday people under the weight of  their own desperation.

Sure..we do whatever we can to save ourselves, including dishing out more pain. 

My question is..Where does that get everybody else ?

 

i wasn't clear when i said "they aren't everyday people" what i mean by that is that they have dealt with things very few people have to deal with. i dont need to deal with my friend getting killed by an ied, or getting ambushed just because i wear a badge, nor do i have to worry about SWAT kicking down my door. I, and a lot of other people, dont have to deal with that pressure.

 

so, yes, they are 'everyday people" its just they (and i'm wording this terribly) could be shaped in someway by their experience. And to play into what you said, the only way to understand why this is, is to have gone through the same things.

 

"everyday people" can be used to include or exclude any group of people, from anime fans, to diabetics. you're reading too much into it.

 

a person who kills for fun, financial gain, or for more foul reasons, is no benefit to any society, people not submitting to the wills of those people are not the problem

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A gun fired in anger and one used in defense are completely different. One is a crime, the other is justified. I think Dan needs to visit Chicago, NYC, Manhattan, The Bronx, LA or New Jersey, which are all conflict zones and see the reality that one cannot easily escape a threat or conflict. Say you are foot or on a bicycle and approached  by an aggressive gang that wants to check you or even kill you based on your ethnic background, what then? You have a choice, be a victim and get hurt or killed or stand your ground, with a them or me mindset. Gangs have vehicles and sometimes even illegally obtained automatic weapons like Uzis. If you still think you can walk out and avoid such, you are wrong. Read the numerous stories about home invasion, defense of, castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. There are often statutes that reflect such. 

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